Since 2005, Jayhas grown four businesses. He’s taken three businesses from zero staff to 22 staff. He’s exited twiceonce in 2011 and again in 2013.
Check out his story of how he went from Battlefield to Boardroom and is now a sought after coach, renowned for adding a ZERO and more to your business.
Dylis: Hi there, this is Dylis Guyan. Welcome to the Inspired Selling Podcast, the place where business owners who sell to bigger businesses, discover how to attract, convert, and retain more of their ideal clients on a consistent basis without any of those nasty, sleazy, pushy, salesy tactics that I often see.
Once again I’ve got a fantastic guest for you today Jay Allen. So let me just tell you a little bit about Jay. So since leaving the army after 12 years’ service, Jay has gone on to set up and grow four of his own businesses working as a consultant with some of the most well-known names on the UK High Street. He sits on the national board for both the national print management business and a registered charity and has won both national and international awards in 2015 with his published business book Battlefield 2 Boardroom.
So, you can see we’re going to have a really interesting interview today. That book is about the 10 proven strategies to combat mediocrity. He also won an international publishers innovation award for its insight and impact on modern business practice. In January 2017, he also launched his latest book, The Road 2 Utopia: (and how to take the shortcut!). So really looking forward to talking to you and digging deeper into this
Jay. Tell us your backstory. Just share that with us. How did you get to do what you’re doing today and give us a little bit of insight from your army days?
Jay: Sure, good day to you and to your listeners. Thanks very much for having me on. That was quite an accolade. Whoever wrote that I need to be able to thank them and offer them a fiver or something. That was quite interesting, thank you.
Dylis: Well I just put that together Jay, from the many places that I looked to be able to introduce you today.
Jay: Well that was very kind of you, thanks very much Dylis. So, a bit about me then. I went through school with enough GCSEs to be able to get to college and enough A levels to get to university with no real consideration or real drive with regards to what I was going to do at the end of it. I was one of those people that still believe that, well, if you stayed in education and you get a degree more jobs, and more doors will be open to you.
So, I qualified, I managed to get a first. I qualified in psychology and human behaviour. I’ve always been fascinated by humans and the things that we do. I never expected it to lead me to where it’s got to today. But the intent, the expectation was to be able to go into social services and to work with kids that have fallen off the straight and narrow and try to give them a little bit of a hint. Try and work with the gang kid culture and trying to point them back from a road of self-destruction onto something a little bit more productive for themselves and society.
I did that for the first seven months of my salaried career. I haven’t got got a first I was offered two or three different appointments and opted for one in the center of Nottingham and Nottingham shire, which is close to where I was born and grew up.
I did that for 7 months, however, I very quickly realised that there was a lot of red tape and bureaucracy which in actual fact prevented you from actually doing any real impactful change because it was a multi service department and you have to hand this bit over to them and this and bit over to them and this over to the others. Realistically you ended up being a pen pusher.
I knew full well that I was going to get particularly frustrated in that career if I stayed in it. I mean, while all of my friends who hadn’t gone to college or University had left school to get a job. I’d seen the big advert on the TV, the army needs you. Register to go to the Falklands war.
So as I was getting disillusioned with being a psychiatrist they were coming back from the Falklands with stories and cash and girlfriends and all of that sounded a lot more interesting than pushing pencils for the local social services department. Without further ado, I resigned from my job on the Thursday. I went into the army careers office on the Friday and said “Giz a job”. A week or two weeks on the following Saturday, I was in basic training and learning to become a paramedic in the British army.
Dylis: Wow, wow.
Jay: I spent 14 years in the army, 12 years in active service, a year of training and a year towards the end in rehabilitation. I loved my job in the army, I was fortunate enough to have travelled to all the sexy places in the world like the first Gulf War in Northern Ireland and Bosnia and Kosovo and Sierra Leone. All the wonderful, fabulous places that you don’t tend to see on Thompsons.
Jay: Yeah, absolutely. Until such a time…and I’d become a career soldier – really. I was happy to be able to do what I was doing. I had risen through the ranks of few times and been able to get some power of privilege and an opportunity and ran a team. Pretty much picked my own hours within reason. The colonel was very, very supportive and said, “I don’t mind what time you start work in the morning as long as you understand that I start work at 7:30 and I like my coffee hot.”
Dylis: Brilliant, brilliant.
Jay: But I worked for an exceptional maverick of a colonel who went on to become a four-star general, before he retired. I travelled the world a few times. I enjoyed my career it was going exceptionally well until such a time as I had an accident in the war. Rather than being a medic looking after everybody else, I was the one that was shouting “medic!” Hoping that someone came to my aid.
Dylis: When you came out of the army how was that? How did you feel in terms of how you were going to move forward with any kind of career? I mean, I don’t know how bad your condition, was, how badly hurt you were, but was that a difficult time for you?
Jay: Massively. Massively. I spent 14 months in hospital during my recovery period and I knew from day one that I was never going to be able to return to uniform in the service. So I knew I’ve got…during my rehabilitation phase I knew full well that I needed to prepare myself for this thing called civvy street or getting a proper job. I had no anticipation at the time that that barbed wire around every barracks was actually to keep people in as opposed to keep people out. I didn’t realize that that barb wire acted as so much protection, and privilege for what we had inside that, you know, coming down the city streets and finding out and you’ve got to…the money that comes into your bank accounts at the end of the month isn’t all yours.
That was a new experience because the army is very good at taking everything off you before you receive it, including your rent and your bills and pretty much everything that needs to be taken care of is done and whatever’s in your bank account, whatever they pay you is yours. Then you come to the civvy streets and you earn a salary and then you go, hang on a minute, I’ve only got about 20 percent left to spend for myself. Everything was already taken care of. So that was interesting.
Jay: Well, I think, the biggest problem that I initially suffered when I first left the army, people’s perceptions to me as a soldier. Now don’t get me wrong, I finished in full uniform and entered Civvy Street back in 2003, long before PTSD was fashionable. Which to be able to admit to any HR professional, and I went for 153 interviews in the 10 months after I’d left and they always, they always ask the same question. You’ve got a great CV, you’ve held a management position, you understand what a P&L balance sheet is, you’re a good asset to the team other than the fact that this CV says that you’ve not been in employment for the last two years, where have you been?
The moment you say, well, I spent pretty much 18 months in and out of hospital and rehabilitation, but everything’s cool now, all of a sudden you go from being a good catch to a long-term assumptions risks and there were three or four occasions where the HR manager interviewing said, “Listen, we’d love to employ you but we’re fearful that we might take you on and you end up spending some more time in hospital and us not getting any benefit from you, so we’d like you to go away and get a job and prove that you can hold down a job, but then come back and work for us in a years’ time because we’d love to have you.”
The problem was when everyone was saying the same thing to you, then you know very quickly the mortgage is being paid by the redundancy that you got from the service and very quickly one outweighs the other. I realised I simply needed to get a job. After 153 failed interviews, if nobody else will take you on then the simple answer is you take yourself on. If you’ve become unemployable, then the simple fact is employ yourself and I set up in business in 2005.
Dylis: Yeah. Who were you working with? Just tell us about what you actually do now.
Jay: So since 2005, we’ve gone on to grow four businesses. I’ve taken three businesses from zero staff to 22 staff. I’ve exited twice, I exited in 2011 and again in 2013. Now we tend to work with business owners who are looking to significantly grow their business. I’m not interested in business owners that still talk about being able to create a part time job for themselves or wants to be able to create self-employment where they continually want to spend all of their life working in the job. I’m far more interested in working with people that wants to be able to scale the business to such a degree that the business starts to give them an income whether they’re in it or not and it can’t make them redundant. Our most success to date is being able to help how a client to be able to employ one new person every four months for four and a half years and to grow so significantly that they needed the additional staff to do so.
Dylis: Brilliant, so tell us then what did you bring with you in terms of strategies and techniques from your army days that you have implemented into your businesses and into the businesses of your clients?
Jay: There two predominant things that we brought from the military, the rest of which have pretty much been pretty much been from my psychology days or from simply applying things myself and seeing if they work. But there are two fundamental things…. okay let’s go for three lets’ be generous. First of all, the first day that I got into uniform and into my regimen I spent a year in training and learning how to become a solider, but the first day I was deployable as a soldier I was fortunate to be taken into the, regimental Sergeant Majors Office, a gentleman called Mick Gemain, who was the most influential person in my military career.
He said, “Allen let me tell you two things, and if you remember both of them your career will go well, and if you forget either of them, you’ll probably stop here and now. And I thought, well, this is important, I’ll write it down. The first thing he said is , “The army is one of the best in the world at being able to manage big things”. So if there’s something that’s big going on and let’s face it, we do get involved in some big things from time to time, but if there’s big things going on, go with it and understand how you can help oil the wheels and keep the motion going. Never ever ever say ‘but sir’ because we haven’t got time for ‘but sirs’. We need to be on board. So whenever something big is happening, make sure that you and anyone you’re responsible for is completely 100% on the bus, facing forward ready to go.
“Yeah, we could do that.” He said “Allen there is a caveat to this. If the small stuff going on, if the stuff going on that doesn’t involve the army or the regimen or the core, if the smaller stuff that only needs a few people to deal with, don’t tell us about it because we don’t really care that much about small stuff. The simple fact is we’re here to deal with big stuff and it’s your job to deal with small stuff. Don’t bring us problems just let us know that it’s been dealt with in order that we can concentrate on the big stuff.”
Jay; That was huge both in the military days and certainly ever since I’ve worked in civvy Street I was fortunate enough to have lunch with Warren Buffet in 2015. Now I need to be honest and sincere about this and say there was 999 other people at the same lunch, but I was there, and Warren Buffet was the speaker.
Dylis: I’m really impressed there.
Jay: Warren Buffet was one of the first people that really influenced me as a business owner when he said, “I think big and most other people…”
Dylis: Say that again Jay
Jay: He simply said “I think big and most other business owners simply think too small and as a result it automatically gives me the advantage. So, if there’s any advice I’d give to any business owner from that segment of my life, it would simply be, stop thinking small because it’s far far easier to think smaller and be successful than it is to think big and not be quite as big as you first thought you could be capable of. You’ve got to have far bigger thoughts if we want to far bigger actions and far bigger impact.
Dylis: It’s not much harder to do the big things as it is to do the smaller things.
Jay: I’ve got to be honest with you, I often say to people what’s the difference, what’s the gap between where you are right now and where you want to be in twelve months’ time? What’s the size of the gap? But ironically, it’s a lot easier to be able to put something big and to fill a big gap than it is to try and think intrinsically small to be able to significantly cover a little gap. So that was the first thing I got from Mick Germain is – think bigger thoughts if you want to have bigger impacts and bigger pockets.
Jay: The other thing I took from him is it is far better to ask for forgiveness than permission
Dylis: Do you know what I’m laughing because my husband was in the marines for 25 years and that’s something that he often says.
Jay: It must be a service thing, but believe you me it’s so, so true. You see if you know the rules then you know which ones that you have to apply, but you also know the ones that although are written probably don’t really apply unless they have to. The simple fact is that no one wants a winger or a moaner. No one wants someone that says “I’ll have a steering committee, we’ll have a consensus”. People just want results.
Whilst everybody else was having this steering committee, we’re just bloody well getting on with it and ironically doing a full day’s work, getting up early, having a list of things that you will do today, and you will not finish until the list is complete. Probably increased our turnover. Well, I know how much it increased our turnover. The fourth business I launched called My True North, the one that we’re in as we speak today, we launched that on the 13th of May and by the 6th of June I was employing my first member of staff.
By the 23rd of June we were employing our second member staff because we knew that turn up early, do a full day’s work. Give permission to people for one to make decisions, and two, to welcome errors into the business so we can learn from them is the quickest way. Then you can employ people that want to work for a successful business as opposed to people that wants to work for a job.
Dylis: Just give us a quick example then Jay for our business owners who are the majority of the audience here at Inspired Selling, give me an example of thinking big. I get what you’re saying about write your list, work through it and so on. It’s about if you’re thinking bigger, the things on the list that you’re going to do are going to be different so give us an example.
Jay: Okay so very briefly we’ll do a wide scale thing and then we’ll narrow it down just to be able to help out everybody who’s listening today.
Jay: First of all, we need to understand whenever you chase money it will always evade you. You see money enjoys the game of chase and when ever you’re prepared to play the game and chase the next big pay check or chase the next contract, it will always play chase and allow it to evade it so you carry on playing. It’s a game of cat and mouse. And yet the moment you stop chasing the cash and start chasing impact cash gets bored and starts to follow you and says, will you come play with me?
So I compare any business to dropping a pebble into a pond. First of all, the pebble is you. And the first and most important person in any business is the business owner or business leader. Because without clear direction from a person or persons, if it’s a partnership, the business just goes round and round in circles and doesn’t get anywhere. So first of all, we have to have an impact and we have to be clear about who we are, and what we want to achieve.
Jay: Secondly as we drop the pebble into the water, the first ripple, that’s our immediate family because ironically the most significant priority in anybody’s lives is to be able to provide them and the family. So, we have to ensure that our businesses is geared to be able to reward good behaviour in a means that satisfies the egos and requirements of everyone within the business. We have to be profit first business in order to be able to look after the most valuable asset in any business which is its staff.
Beyond that the next ripple is our local community, our family and friends, and our wider circle of influence. What impact can we have in our local community? What can we do to positively give back but what sort of an impact can we have on the local community itself to become a person of influence because it’s the influence where the cash will follow.
Beyond that it’s a case of well, can we have an impact or our industry or the sector in which we’re in. Eventually once we’ve been able to get to such a specific group status, we can start to look at humanity and understand as to what can we do to either change our local humanity or impact humanity or support businesses that are doing so? Ironically if you look at the UN 2030 group with regards to the 17 global problems that are being addressed at present, it is estimated that there is $176 trillion of aid required between now and 2030 to be able to support the 17 biggest problems that the world faces. Your question should be what impact am I having on those 17 issues? Ironically, I wouldn’t mind 0.000001% of that $176 trillion as opposed to thinking about, where does my salary come from next week.
Dylis: So what you’re talking about here really is your mind set and your thinking right at the beginning, right at the outset.
Jay: Absolutely. I can assure you that 80% of business is from here before we do here [heart], we have to have absolute clarity on exactly what it is that we want to achieve and when we want to achieve it. We will never achieve anything worthwhile without a target and a deadline. Then every aspect of the business has to be geared towards are we impacting that target and that deadline.
The best example I can give of this is one of our clients, Adam, who we worked with over the last three and half years. Now when Adam first came to us, he already had a business, he had a training business in the northwest of England. He was doing particularly well, and he also owned a small commercial cleaning business. Two businesses by his 30th birthday and he was doing okay for himself, but he had some really, really big personal ambitions about what he wants to achieve for him and his family.
When we looked at how to scale both of these businesses, we established that regardless of how much he scaled it, he was never going to be able to achieve the level of income he wanted for the lifestyle he wants to lead, in the timeframe that he wanted to lead it in. We had to do something significantly different if we were going to be able to give him the income that he wanted in the timeframe. A target and a deadline.
What we established was we needed to sell his business and start again. His business, the model that he was in, wasn’t scalable enough in the timeframe in order to get to where he wanted to be. So, he sold both businesses and he used the money from the sales to be able to start investing in a brand-new business. The new business was specifically designed to be able to create maximum personal wealth in the minimum amount of time. Every single aspect of the business as it grew and grew and grew over the three years and seven months that he owned it was geared towards Is this going to generate this amount of income by this date. And he took a £25,000 investment into a start-up business and converted it into £8.4 million sale in three years and four months’ time. He retired on his 35th birthday.
Dylis: What were those key elements then? Let’s share some of the three top strategies that people can take away and implement.
Jay: First of all, I need to share with you a triangle. That’s one triangle and that’s another triangle and the difference is huge. You see, first of all, to be able to go from a growth business to a scale business, we need to understand the impact that these three points have on our business. First of all, people, process, systems; we have to have the people, the processes and the systems in place, that work collectively to be able to help the business to grow. So, an arrow pointing up which will be able to help the business grow and grow and grow.
We’ve got to be able to have the people and the right people doing the right things at the right time in order to contribute to growth, not towards generating an income for themselves. Every action in a business has to be towards; Does this make us achieve the goals that we set quicker or higher goals within the same timeframe. And we must have feedback in order to be able to question anybody any time to say, what are you doing right now and how does that contributesto our goals because we’re all in it.
Dylis: This is absolute clarity.
Jay: Absolute clarity, a target and deadline and it has to be an audaciously big target; we call them BFHAG’s; big, fat, hairy audacious goals. It’s an army thing. We call them what is the BFHAGS for this year and what’s the big fat forever. What’s the big goals that we’re aiming for and how is your actions right now contributing to those goals? And if you can’t justify it easily within a sentence or two, then the chances are you’re trying to quantify it, which is probably not making enough money.
So people, process and system. However, businesses that failed and my last university degree, I’m currently being audited by Preston University to establish whether my studies is worthy of a doctorate or not at the moment. But my last area of studies, the last three and a half years has been looking at 153 businesses that failed. I’ve looked at 153 high street businesses that aren’t anymore. The most recent one before this recording was ToysRus, I studied ToysRus for quite some time to find out as to why a business that was on every high street subsequently disappeared. I wanted to know why, because you see, there is a multitude of information that we can find all time, all the way over the Internet.
There’s so much information out there about how businesses succeed, that the overnight success story and yet the simple fact is you will learn much more from a failure than you ever will from a success because it’s only when you fail that you learned to say, what do I need to do differently so I don’t fail next time. Whenever the going is good you never stop and say, well, why is that? You just enjoy the ride and it isn’t until the ride is over the wonder as to what it is that needs to do to make it go again
Dylis: I’ve shared this quite a number of times on different podcasts but my thing that I do is; after everything, no matter what the outcome, what went well, what didn’t go well, what I need to do differently because you can’t keep doing the same thing over and over again.
Jay: It comes back to my military days, it doesn’t matter what you do, before you go out on a patrol in the morning, you check yourself off, you check everybody else off to be able to make sure that you’re ready for the day’s activities regardless of whatever life throws at you. The moment there is a problem, you all pull together, you fix the problem and let’s face it, the British Army is still considered as the most professional fighting force in the world.
The moment you get to the completion of wherever or whatever that is, you jet back behind into some safe areas, you check yourself off back off again, you check everybody else off again and you make that you’re capable of doing the next day’s work. So, a full day’s work and a clear plan. However, the triangle…the big problem, the problem I found across 153 failed businesses in the U.K was where system and processes drove people. It’s where businesses have invested so much money in implementing a lean sigma program or some new software that had been brought in that everyone now has POS software that everyone now has to deal with.
Where the systems and the processes were the key driving influence and people were prevented from thinking for themselves and simply told to follow the system. Ironically, people stopped thinking and the problem with that, is when there are problems in the business they’re not flagged by the people, they’re not identified. They all go into the silos and they go into the “That’s not my job mentality and as a result they watch it as it fails.
It’s as simple as that, it’s got to be the most expensive thing that you will either ever do well or ever do badly is employ staff, because in any business, the highest bill that you’re ever going to pay is the monthly salary bill. If you invest in staff, if you give them the freedom to be able to grow and develop, if you enable them to be able to show them a career ladder within your small business that helps them understand that in order to be able to get promoted, I’ve got to want for somebody else to become better at the job that I’m currently doing, than I am at present, in order for me to be to be accountable for the area of responsibility to supervise them.
We’ve got to be able to give career help and support to our small businesses and understand the mentality of growth and scale because if we get it right they will become your greatest assets. I can assure you forward that employing should be a six to eight-week decision, not a six to nine months decision. The amount of time I hear people say I’d love to be able to take on another member of staff, I just can’t afford it right now. The simple fact is you can’t afford not to.
Whenever I take somebody on, and we took three members of staff on last year or whenever I take anybody on, I say to them, “I will give you the freedom to do whatever it is that you feel the need to do in the first three weeks of employment”. Every folder is available for you to be able to view, every member of staff is available for you to talk to, I will come to work whenever you want to come to work and I will support you in your learning for three weeks. Then week four is called testing and you’ve got to show me what you’ve learned and what you’re capable of delivering to this business and if you can’t generate sufficient to be able to pay your income, then thanks very much, it’s been a great work experience. If you can generate more than you want to earn as income that’s great and you can stay on. The more you generate, the more I will pay you.
None of my staff have anything like a fixed term salary. When I sold my last business, my sales manager, when he started with me, he was on a basic salary, and in those days I think the minimum salary was £5.70 an hour I think, it was about nine quid or something. In those days I think the basic salary is about £5.7 an hour I think it was and his salary £6.00 an hour, just over the minimum wage. We set him some very, very, very significant targets and said if you hit these targets these are the bonus structure that we will pay you.
When I sold that business, there were 22 members of staff, he was head of sales and his P.A.Y.E, his salary, remained at £6.00 an hour. He just happens to earn about £70,000.00 a year in bonuses and he didn’t give a damn about his salary because he knew it was all about the package and what he contributed, and he would get a percentage of whatever it was that he generated. All capital turn into potential, we’ve got to be able to invite all the people on our bus to be willing at some stage to drive the bus and to work collectively to be able to get it to a further destination in simply the next bus.
Dylis: Do you know what I love? There’s two things that I sort of pick to talk to you a bit. Working collectively is so important, rather than what you were alluding to before about going around as individual silos. It’s the strength of the team and this is a big military thing as well, isn’t it? The strength of the team, it really is one for all and all for one.
Jay: I remember the first time going to Northern Ireland and while Northern Ireland was still before the peace treaty and preparing for the first time ever to go on a foot patrol. It was quite a daunting experience because as far as I’m concerned, these are my people, this is my language, and this is my country that we’re in and firing live ammunition for the first time outside of basic training. This is now quite a daunting reality.
I recall my corporal with the head of the section that was going to take us out and he simply said Allan, I don’t know but don’t get me wrong, when I was first there as a private soldier, the lowest of the low, you looked up to anyone and they were god or compared to the rank that you hold. I remember him saying to me, his name was Dwayne and he says to me, “When you walked out through those barracks and you’re on the streets, the man in front of you is your god and without hesitation or consideration if necessary, you will die to protect your god. The consolation to knowing that there’s somebody behind you thinking exactly the same thing”.
Dylis: My husband told me many, many stories, he was in Ireland as well in fact but he’s told me many stories about how his men were his men, he would have died for them and they would have died for him.
Dylis: You have to create that that just doesn’t happen. So, the leader who creates that sort of environment where people feel that, they feel considered and supported and caring if we’re talking about in the business world and funny enough and I know a number of people who would refer to my husband as the legend as a good guy and I remember him.
Jay: I’ll give you a quick example from one of the chapters within the book Battlefields to Boardroom. Just before the first gulf war, there were 226,000 American troops deployed in and around Iraq. Put that into context, almost quarter of a million soldiers deployed, ready to be able to fell Saddam and take over the protection of the Iraqi people. And 72 hours before the political decision was made to be able to go and invade Iraq, it was determined that an 8,200 British spearhead would lead the invasion followed by 226,000 American soldiers.
And the simple fact is, whilst I’ve got nothing against Americans, I’m sure that there are many out there that are possibly listening to this and thinking I’m about to become quite racist and I assure you I’m not, some of my dearest and longest friends are American, but the American philosophy is “I swear allegiance to do as I’m told and not think for myself. And the British, certainly the British soldiers are taught this is the outcome we need to achieve, and these are the parameters that you’re allowed to work within and inside those parameters make it happen.
Dylis: Oh, fantastic. On that note Jay I’m going to suggest that everyone gets your book Battlefield 2 Boardroom and the subsequent book The Road 2 Utopia. I could talk to you all day, maybe you could come back and we could have another interview and take a deeper dive, but just talking to you has inspired me and I’m sure if I spoke to some of your employees they would say “This is a great place to work”. And if they think it’s a great place, then you’ve got that attraction thing going on when people go, I will actually want to work there.
Jay: There’s one quick measure you should note when you’ve made it with staff. Last year, three members of my staff completely independently of me or anything else, opted to go on holiday together because they didn’t want to spend two weeks apart.
Dylis: So that is testament to a great leader because you have to create the environment, and I say this over and over again, I’m totally inspired Jay. So, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, how might they do that?
Jay: Thanks very much; the best thing to do is either drop an email to firstname.lastname@example.org . Alternatively is to go onto the website or on social media and find us at www.jayallen.uk or www.mytruenorth.biz/
Dylis: Brilliant. Jay, thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure and I look forward to speaking to you again soon.
Jay: Thank you very much for having me.
Dylis: Oh Gosh, it’s been a pleasure. Bye for now.
What an excellent interview that was. I can’t wait actually to interview him again. So if you haven’t subscribed, please subscribe to my podcast http://dylisguyan.com/podcast/ and also if you would like to interact with me more on a daily basis please come join me on my Facebook group – Inspired Selling https://www.facebook.com/groups/InspiredSelling/ This is specifically for business owners who are selling to bigger businesses and want to learn more of the strategies and techniques and so on for getting more clients.
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